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Welcome back to Not Alone with Melissa Sue.
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I want to just thank you for being here today, for listening in, because each guest is handpicked and given to me from God.
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Because I know that each story is for somebody out there that needed this message today.
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The topic today is about addiction, which I feel is one of the most misunderstood human experiences of our lifetime.
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It is often regarded as a weakness, a lack of discipline, or a moral failure.
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But what if we start understanding that it is a response to pain and disconnection?
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Because I truly feel we become disconnected from within, from our soul purpose, and from the higher power.
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And now I believe that this conversation will not only help me understand addiction a bit more, because I lived with an addicted husband to opiates and alcohol.
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He was a doctor.
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So I know that also had to do with his identity.
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Being able to see that he has had addictions, he would have to almost let go of his identity as a doctor.
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So today I am so honored to have Dr.
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Don Middleton, who is a board-certified physician in addiction medicine.
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He is also who's been in the field for decades clinically as a family practitioner.
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He's been a leader in this field.
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He currently practices at the Meadows Behavioral Health, one of the nation's leading treatment centers here in Arizona.
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Has served in national roles in addiction medicine, and is the founder of the Dunamis Initiative, and also the author of the book called The Dunamis Effect, a movement that brings together science, the 12 steps, and faith to restore not just sobriety, but your identity.
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Now this for me resonates so much because this is how I also wrote my books through prayer, through words that just woke me up in the middle of the night.
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Each book I wrote them mostly from 2 a.m.
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to about noon.
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That was my cutoff.
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And it just flowed and flowed and flowed.
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And even by the end of my books, I'm like, what did I write?
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Because I know it was all divinely written.
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Words that God wanted me to write.
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And so I am excited to share his work because I truly feel when Jesus is your higher power, this is not out of fear or religion, but this is from a place of relationship, healing, and restoration, which is something that truly resonates for me.
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And then because what makes this conversation so powerful that it's not clinical, but it's also personal.
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So today we're going beyond the surface.
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We're gonna talk about shame, we're gonna talk about the nervous system, uh generational pattern, and what it really means to heal beyond removing the substance, what it that looks like for sobriety.
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So today I'm just deeply honored, deeply honored to have you here because this hits home and I know my family is still integrating, kind of living with uh addiction.
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Yeah.
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And I know I have a lot of listeners that they are living in that world right now, either for themselves or a loved one.
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So I'm grateful to have you here.
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It's a pleasure to be here, Melissa.
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Uh it would be really hard to imagine someone that didn't have someone in their inner circle that suffers from addiction, whether it be a family member or a very close friend.
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It's very uncommon now to meet someone that doesn't know anybody.
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Yeah, because addiction is not, you know, just the opiates or alcohol.
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This can be uh, you know, the there's sex, there's um the sugar addictions, there's just so many varieties of things that we uh caffeine, you know, we find other ways.
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Yes, if humans can do it, humans can overdo it.
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Can overdo it.
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And so just about anything, whether it's uh power at work or control over your family members, or it can even be exercise or even religious rituals.
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They can become a uh an idol for you rather than uh a way of truly uh integrating a healthier way to soothe yourself.
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So now can we go back, take us back to where we can where it collided for you?
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Your personal life as a physician.
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Right.
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And your battle with addiction collided.
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Yes.
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I I mean I like to say that I have a doctor's degree, but I also have a a PhD from the School of Hard Knocks.
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I uh I learned to drink in high school like a bunch of us did, you know, sneak a bottle into the high school football game on Fridays and and that kind of thing.
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And then in college, you know, everybody kind of felt like it seemed like everybody was drinking.
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And and while a lot of them were able to walk away from it, uh it seemed to just grab me and and keep a hold of my life for for years, and then it turned into decades.
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Um I quit over and over and over again, and uh uh thought I was managing it, but clearly wasn't.
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And it allowed my uh physical health to get out of control, and it began to damage my family and my uh, especially my marriage, and and my wife finally just was she's a good Christian praying woman, but finally just said, you know, here's the boundary.
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Enough's enough, things are gonna change, or things are gonna change.
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And uh it I thankfully it cracked uh a little gleam of light in my ego enough that I uh realized I was about to lose everything that mattered to me.
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And I uh what I did was I turned myself into the State Board of Medical Examiners as an impaired physician.
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And at the time, were you drinking?
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Was this a daily thing or a thing?
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And uh mostly I would find myself at night, back in my bedroom by myself with my iPad, watching Netflix, drinking until I just kind of passed out or ran out and and uh But you were able to go back to work the next day.
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No, I wasn't working at my best for sure.
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And I wasn't uh and I pretended I was doing well, but uh with in the retrospective scope, I I obviously wasn't giving my best to my patients or my family or to God.
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Yeah, to God.
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And I can relate to that story because my husband, you know, in the last few years of his life, he was, you know, a dentist uh and he was drinking every day.
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But he was also going to work five days a week and he could hide it well.
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Yeah, was it was he providing probably the same care when he wasn't drinking years prior?
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Probably not.
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And sometimes too, he you know, show up late or say he's sick, and you know, then we have to cancel patients.
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So I you know, I'd love for people to understand that addicts can also be so proficient in hiding it.
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Yeah and still going to work and keeping their jobs too.
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Right.
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The I mean, you know, the classic guy pushing his shopping cart full of aluminum cans is is very small percentage of uh addicted people.
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They're sitting next to you in work, they're at every level of of industry from the private in the army to the general.
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They're you know, they're the janitor up to the CEO.
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They're it's everywhere and and it has no respect for position or title.
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And do you find that yeah, we become so they become so good at hiding it and being secretive.
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And and then, but it was really you said your wife, once she said, I'm, you know, you either get cleaned up or I leave you, then you decided you to get clean to go get cleaned up.
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And did you go to rehab?
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Yes, well, uh the board is very uh clear on its uh accountability.
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They they do not uh take that lightly.
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So they made me go to a rehab here in Phoenix uh for 30 days, and and I don't know that I got as much out of it as I did the rest of my career, uh rest of my uh recovery.
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But uh it did allow me to be separated from my drug of choice and to wrap my arms around the fact that I need to do something different.
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I I can't come back here again.
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And then they also included a very healthy dose of uh 12-step community.
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I had to turn in logs every uh month with the meetings that I went to, and I had to call in every day to see if I needed to uh pee in a cup to prove that I was staying clean.
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So for five years, that was my life, and uh and it was very vigorous, but uh it's like they just welded the training wheels on.
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They said, We're gonna keep you from yourself.
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And I needed it for the first year or so, but then after that, it just became part of what I had to do to stay uh licensed.
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License, okay.
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And these meetings for you at that point they were uh daily, or how long did you, or did you put yourself in a rehab that was three months?
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Well, the no the rehab was 30 days, and then I had to do uh at least three, but they recommended five uh support group meetings a week.
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And they just said add infinitum.
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And so I did them.
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I found a group that uh became my home group, and and I went there five or six days a week at least, and uh, and then went to some others just so I could, you know, taste the other flavors.
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And God used the really good people in AA and uh to save my life.
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I have nothing bad to say about them.
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They uh they were wonderful people that said, Look, we know you think you're super duper smart, Doctor, um, but your big ginormous brain bought you a seat here in AA.
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So shut up and sit down and listen to us, okay?
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And then, but they really just, you know, loved me until I could learn to love myself again.
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And that was just such a gift.
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And then could you go back?
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Do they worked in going back as to why why you were using a substance?
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What you know, yeah.
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They don't dig as much into your past.
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Uh, I mean, you do on your fourth step do a real thorough, thorough inventory of your life, but uh, but they're not trained professionals to uh really help you ferret out trauma and and that kind of thing.
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Um I I I did some uh counseling with a good Christian uh counselor, and we spent uh a day a week for you know many a year or so just trying to pick apart, you know, why why?
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I mean, I was just fascinated with the why.
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Yeah, and what was the why?
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Well, I had this I had a medical problem when I was a little kid that that made me feel like somehow I was made imperfectly.
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And uh, and it just and and you know, when older folks like grown-ups are saying, Well, what's wrong with you?
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You're a kid, you figure like so must be something wrong with me.
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You know, they know stuff like Santa Claus and tooth fairy and stuff.
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So so if they say something's wrong with me, there must be something wrong with me.
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And and so that gets internalized.
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And and I didn't even think about that when I was an adult, you know, I didn't think about that part of my life, but but when uh, like I said, putting on the retrospectoscope glasses and looking back at it, I I do see in uh most of my adult life that I've uh had this sense of insecurity and a feeling of not worthiness, of love, or or respect.
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And and so I spend my whole life trying to uh achieve that.
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And there's always somebody that's more worthy, and always someone that's you know running faster, or their bank accounts bigger, or they're more handsome.
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Yeah, there's always gonna be somebody.
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Yeah, if you try to uh get there, you'll there's no there then.
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So would drinking kind of alleviate the that noise, or would you think?
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Yeah, so it feels uncomfortable to be unworthy of love and respect.
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And uh I found if I poured alcohol on it, it went away for a couple of hours, and that fixed my problem, you know, until it didn't, until it became its own problem.
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Because you were a physician, you had a family.
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Yeah, so you'd think they'd be, okay, I'm worthy, you know, I've done really well for myself, and that was the identity, but it was still deep-rooted.
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You know, 99% of the world would trade their problems with mine in a minute, and uh, and so I don't try to pretend like my uh life was so brutal.
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You know, I know lots of people whose lives were just tragic, make you cry.
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And uh, and so I I you don't try to compare it to other people, but it was my experience was like something didn't feel right inside of me.
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And I didn't know what it was, but I knew if I poured alcohol on it, it went away.
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And good on me if I didn't drink, I didn't get a D UI or yell at the dog or whatever, right?
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But but if I didn't figure out what was going on in here and get a healthy toolbox to fix it, I'd scratch you with other things like food or gambling or buying too much garbage off of Amazon.
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I mean, yeah, always trying to get it.
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It's not gonna go unscratch.
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So, so crossover addictions are real big.
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If you if you it's not enough just to be abstinent, you need to become emotionally and spiritually whole again and and be good mind, body, and spirit.
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And if you're that holistic kind of a view of wellness, then you can enjoy life.
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It's not good enough just to white knuckle through it.
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You want to just have joy, happiness, yes, yes.
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And that's very much the gut god connection is like blending all of it, the faith, the science, and and uh it it just seems and really going back and seeing it's almost like okay, let's it's not like you gotta relive the bad, you know, but you've gotta know why it's there and and rewire, repattern our thoughts that are so loud, like that.
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I always tell my kids, that little bully inside that is really loud and saying, I'm not good enough or I'm not smart enough, and that comparison, you know, from everybody else.
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How are you gonna quiet that?
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I said, Well, I quiet that now through speaking with God with prayer.
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When that's really loud and I'm spiraling, I just pause and I pray.
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And I I also do breath work because breath work can bring in more light.
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Definitely.
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And there's also I do a lot of uh health protocols that could allow for more of that, because we're not living in a bubble here.
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There's toxins all around, and that affects, I truly affects our connection.
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And it's in our, you know, the gut-brain connection.
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So to remove and being aware of these toxins that we're putting inside our bodies on a daily basis will affect our our mind.
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So I'm curious as well in recovery.
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I think obviously there's a a brain imbalance of um probably uh nutrient deficiency, mineral deficiency.
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And so I'm curious to what you find in recovery that you can people can know to they have to dig deeper to the personal, to the emotions, but also become aware that their brain is probably depleted.
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Yes.
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Well, you what we used to think about the brain a long time ago was that all the other cells in your body could heal and regenerate themselves.
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But whatever brain cells you had by the time you were about 20, that's what you were gonna get.
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And if you damage them by being an alcoholic or a boxer or whatever, well, tough.
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But we know now that they can regrow and regenerate.
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And the word neuroplasticity is now in the public, you know, view.
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People understand that you can grow new brain tissue, but it takes a certain environment.
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And we know that it has to do with uh with resting the brain through meditation and through sleep, and it takes uh oxygen, so aerobic exercise, aerobic hyperbaric oxygen chambers.
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I've been doing that, and I've just been loving that.
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Nutrition is is definitely part of it.
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I mean, it's a moving target, and we don't understand exactly what's perfect.
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Now, um, most people want to get deep in the weeds about like one little nutrient or something, and they come to us asking, you know, the physician, like, should I be taking how much should turmeric should I be taking?
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And I'm like, how about you stop eating Jack in the Box first?
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You know, remove process first.
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Well, we do the big things first, and then we can get down in the weeds about the milligrams of magnesium or something, you know.
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But but for the most part, it's uh it's it's learning to be uh moderation, but but paying attention and also caring enough about yourself to to do those things, not just to read about them and understand them, but actually get good sleep and actually go to that gym.
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To integrate you're paying for the gym membership, why don't you use it regularly and that kind of thing?
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So yeah, it's uh just deciding to uh study up on things is real famous, but but and people will spend hundreds of hours listening to podcasts and then not integrating it.
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Not go to the wall, not go on a walk.
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Yes, yeah.
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It's pretty interesting.
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And do you find it's because too?
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I'm seeing sometimes people will hear, you know, bombard themselves with so much information.
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But if their nervous system is so used to being in fight in flight, and it's just they're an overwhelm, and it's just all too much, they don't do it.
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That's true.
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They don't keep you in constant uh level of uh of inflammation, and and so yeah, breathing uh exercises and things like that help push you back towards the parasympathetic part of your life, and and it's just healthier, and we know that your brain can grow when it's given that proper environment.
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You want to just make sure you're growing it into something that you want it to be too.
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So you have to start with baby steps on starting new habits.
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Like, I'm going to get up every morning, even if I don't want to, and spend time in meditation and prayer, and then take a short walk while the sun comes up on my face, and just do that for months while you're building new neural pathways around that, instead of saying, Well, my neural pathway is I feel crummy, so I go to the Seven Lemon and get a bottle.
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You know, that's the old pathway, and it takes a while for the new ones to form.
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To form.
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And it needs to be intentional.
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Intentional.
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Is that your program?
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The dunum, do am I saying it correctly?
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The dunamis is.
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Dunamis.
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Yeah, dunamis is a Greek word that uh stands for potential power, kind of like dynamite.
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And uh think about like the power that's in a bowstring when it's pulled back, just before you let go of it.
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There's this energy that's about ready to be released.
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Now, dunamis is used a lot in the Bible, especially a lot in the New Testament when Jesus is healing people.
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So we just thought that's the perfect word, you know, but because first of all, people don't use it, so we get to define what it's use in our culture.
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And hopefully people will start uh associating it with addiction recovery.
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But uh, but we just said, you know what, Jesus is doing the healing here, and that's the point is is to not think that it's something that I'm doing myself.
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I my left to myself, I was a train wreck.
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And when I surrendered finally and really surrendered, not just went along with it to get out of trouble.
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When I truly surrendered, then my life could be uh re-molded in the way that God intended it in the first place.
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You surrender.
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I love that word because that's truly what I've had to do, completely surrender.
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And that's hard when you don't know what's on the other end and totally trust what you're being called to do.
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:44.960
And I do find just speaking out of for my husband, surrendering to saying, Yes, I have an alcohol, I've lost control of my intake of alcohol, I've lost the control of the opiates.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.079
He couldn't even surrender to that.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.599
Because that would mean losing his identity.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:54.240
And I know you've, you know, speak of that as well, right?
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:56.799
Rebuilding identity and losing that identity.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.519
And it and if I speak just for my husband.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:02.799
I really couldn't get him to go.
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:08.799
I had found him, these rehab centers where there were mostly doctors there, you know, small group.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.079
And uh it was like, I don't have a problem.
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:17.519
I would just get, well, you don't know how it is to live with chronic health, uh, chronic pain.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:17.839
Yeah.
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:20.000
You know, I have to take these medications.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:28.799
But I always knew these, the inflammation, the back pain was because of all the suppressed emotions he's trying to suppress.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:34.640
And, you know, the long days, of course, bent over as a dentist, but but it was more than that.
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:40.079
It was just suppressing and of the food, inflammatory foods constantly.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:45.039
You talk about wrappers of like fast food profit, you know, that was a common thing too.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:52.480
I think it was just, I couldn't get him to remove that veil, that identity that he held so strong.
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:59.759
Even from the part of like, okay, if if finances are becoming a stressor, let's downsize.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:07.279
But nope, his identity is his great big home that we have, and the dental office, and and losing all of that.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.599
So for I feel men, that's a big thing.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:17.119
Yes, you know, uh at the meadows, I deal with a lot of uh military trauma.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:30.640
And we get people from privates all the way up to people with a really high brass on their shoulders, and uh, and those people will sometimes have seen some serious, serious bad things in their lives.
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:41.759
Um so talking to them about surrender, that's not part of the vocabulary because it sounds to our ear like failure.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:42.640
Yes.
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:52.000
And but those guys have taught me also how to re uh look at that in a different perspective.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:24:00.000
Like they'll say to me, Don, when we war game, sometimes we'll be throwing resources at a hill.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.519
And if we're not careful, we get flanked and we all die.
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.400
So some I have to constantly keep saying, why do I care about that hill?
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:15.039
Is it because it's strategically important to me, or is it just my ego doesn't want to give up a square inch of dirt?
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:22.799
And sometimes the answer is to throw the white flag on that hill and take a step back and win the whole battle.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.160
And he goes, that's called a strategic surrender.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:36.319
And then a few weeks later, I was in an AA room and one of their little unicorn posters that said, When I drank, I gave up everything to get one thing.
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:41.039
And when I got sober, I gave up one thing and gained everything.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:45.279
And I said, A strategic surrender, that's a thing.
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:46.160
I like that.
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.000
And they said, Yeah, Don, that's it's not failure, it's wisdom.
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:54.880
It's smart to sometimes give up one thing to win.
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:58.480
And it's called quitting the losing team.
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:06.880
Like if every day when you're going to school, there's a bully that's beating you up and taking away your lunch money, maybe you should go down a different street.
00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.839
You know, it's it's not stupid.
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000
It's it's smart to do that.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:18.000
And so we have to step back and go, why is it that I wanted to fight to keep alcohol in my life?
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:23.680
It's a it's a neurotoxin, it's destroying my dignity and my family and my health.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:25.440
Why did I want that?
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:32.480
And and so when I surrender on that one thing, I get to gain a life that I never even dreamt was possible.
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:38.480
But it was the life that God intended for me, not the one that Don's plan came across as, you know.
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:43.920
So surrender isn't just a thing in addiction recovery, it's the thing.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:46.400
Because we want to submit.
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.839
Those two words sound a lot alike, surrender and submission.
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:59.279
But submission, that's just complying and going along just to get people to stop yelling at you and maybe gain a little of your health back and whatever.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:07.039
But submission says, I'll put down my weapon and stop fighting, but I know it's right there and I'll pick it up when I feel like it.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.400
And surrender says, I am tired of the pain.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.680
Take my weapon and melt it down into a wind chime.
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:15.839
I'm done, done, done, done, done.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:21.680
And that's when God leans in and goes, now that I can work with, and you can be healed.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:24.640
And allow yourself to receive the help, right?
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.319
And put down the armors.
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:28.799
And but what will you recommend for people?
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.240
Because I really felt, did I need to do a huge intervention?
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:40.079
Like if there's people out there, I know are listening, and there's somebody at home that have been trying to reach, they've been trying to say, Hey, you need to stop.
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:41.920
Like you, you, you like your wife.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:42.319
Yes.
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:55.200
Somebody's gone to say, I'm, I'm going to leave you, and or you get cleaned up, you know, and but they still don't go and and reach and reach for the help.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:55.440
Right.
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.519
Or intervention, do you find intervention uh is is the way to go?
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:05.440
There are professional interventionists that uh sometimes are very good at what they do.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:15.759
It the jury's still out on whether it is good at leading to long-term sobriety, because it in the end requires you can't surrender for someone else.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:16.880
Yeah, I know, I know.
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.000
I truly believe it.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:24.240
So it comes down to uh understanding where your boundaries are and picking ones that you can live with.
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:33.839
Because if you say, if you don't stop drinking, I'm leaving, and they don't, you're now it's your balls on your side of the court, you know.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.920
So you have to make sure you're picking boundaries that you can live with.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.200
And and there's professionals that are really good at it.
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.279
Um I don't know how you do it.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:47.119
It's it's honestly one of the most important things.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:58.160
And I think this is will lead into the the question I didn't want to forget is like, how do you feel sometimes families enable without even consciously knowing that they're enabling?
00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:59.039
Yeah.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:16.480
Well, no one wants to see mom suffer and and be, you know, like my wife, there was times when she was forced to be the wife and the husband and the mom and the dad all at once while she was being a physician herself, okay?
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:29.759
And so I'm sure my kids all assumed roles as the peacemaker and the jokester and and uh the the troubled child and the the good kid, you know, all those classic archaeotypes of of of children.
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:40.559
Um but in the end it it's just about that person surrendering for themselves and finding, and some people just don't do it.
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.000
Yeah, they are just will not do it.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.640
And uh the Bible says that in the end, every knee will bend.
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.680
And it's true, it's just how much is it gonna hurt for that knee to bend?
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:53.920
Yeah.
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:58.000
Are you gonna finally surrender when you're in a hospital bed?
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.200
Are you gonna finally surrender when you're in prison?
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:07.680
Or are you gonna surrender after your last breath?
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:10.400
It's it all those are possible.
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:17.039
And so we have to sometimes just step back and say, what is it that I'm doing?
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.839
And it's just very, very, very difficult.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:33.440
Yeah, I I it's so I love that you explain it that way because I do feel no matter what I would say, or no matter what a friend would say, or family member, it ultimately came to his decision to surrender.
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:39.359
And I to decide, okay, I do need help.
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:54.000
I do need to uh be willing to go to rehab, be willing to dig deep as to why I'm trying to numb this pain and and and get to the root of that problem.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.720
But now it's also I feel there needs to be tools for the family.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:10.319
As much as now I know, I know some families now, you know, you'll attend to the person uh that is has the addiction, but the family has also dealt with that for many years.
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:18.160
I've dealt with that the from my daughter being born to, you know, my husband died, my daughter was eight years old.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:27.759
So it was that slow progression of it introduced in the family and how it affects you and and how it affected the kids.
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:35.920
So I do feel as much, and let's say they do surrender and go get help, but I do feel the family now needs to seek help as well.
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.240
Oh, no, no doubt about that.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:44.559
I mean, um it's not my voice to to try to fix that population.
00:30:44.720 --> 00:31:05.759
I I groups like Al Anon and things like that, and good Christian counseling, and those things are absolutely a godsend to the family to be an allatine and things like that, to understand that you're not alone and that other people have walked through that fire before you and made it out alive, you know.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:21.359
Whether it's watching a parent destroy themselves or or you know, sometimes abusive households, or you know, because cause you can be addicted to to anger and all kinds of things that have nothing to do with a chemical.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:31.599
And people will just go, Yeah, well, he's just really aggressive, and it's like, no, he's he's harming himself and he's continuing to do it even though there's negative consequences.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.480
And that's the definition of addiction.
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:35.920
Addiction, yeah.
00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:47.359
And and on it it's still fascinating to me to understand that where you don't want to stop something that is so toxic for you.
00:31:48.160 --> 00:32:01.519
Because it kinda kind of takes a hold of you, and that's why I truly believe, believing that you're truly not alone and having a higher power, because I know my husband was not raised with any spiritual belief and higher power.
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:09.359
We I've we go to church with my children, and my little daughter would ask Dad, come with us, you know, and it was always a no.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:16.559
And so I do feel that played a big role in the way everything just spiraled.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:27.839
You know, he was so disconnected in wanting to believe that there was anything there other than you know, the the logic for him and why we're here.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:32.079
Well, people that say they don't believe in God, that that's not true.
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:32.720
They do.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.480
Everybody has a God.
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:45.279
Uh they what they really mean is they don't believe in the God of the Bible because they believe in a God, whether it's science or themselves or nature or something like that.
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:53.359
And the problem is that all those things tend to let you down and they tend to be kind of a moving target.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:01.680
And the one thing that hasn't changed for the last thousands of years is is the gospels.
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.839
And Jesus would say to us, don't be afraid.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:11.680
He didn't say don't have fear, he said don't live in fear, don't be afraid.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:17.519
When you get fear, you're designed to have that fear soothed by God.
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.799
So take it to God and be healed.
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:25.200
But some of us just don't feel worthy of that.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:34.799
Or we're so obstinate about being our own God that we feel like we have to soothe it ourselves, and we do it with stuff.
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:36.079
Yeah, with stuff.
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:48.720
I love the way that you explain it because a lot of people will, like you said, think of God as part of the church or religion, and so they're not comfortable saying that word, and they call it something else.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:57.839
And I truly believe that's where Scott was disappointed in what he had always learned about, you know, maybe these pharmaceuticals.
00:33:57.920 --> 00:33:59.599
And I'm not saying it's bad or good.
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:03.200
There are a time and place where we need those, and it was created for good.
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:08.719
Yeah, but he believed in them so much that it that's all he went to.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:09.119
Yes.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:12.639
Okay, I'm gonna go back to that doctor, and this is what's going on.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:19.119
But then it became a 10-bottle of things, one for the other, you know, for the symptom.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:23.760
And it I did see by the end I couldn't even recognize who he was.
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:28.400
Between the drinking and the drugs, I was like, Oh, he almost looked like a mental illness by the end.
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:29.440
Is he bipolar?
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:30.239
Is he this?
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:37.360
But it just changed his personality so much that I don't even know who I was married to anymore.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.440
Well, the brain gets hijacked.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:48.400
The the path into addiction is fascinating because we all kind of know about dopamine and we call it the pleasure center and things like that.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:55.119
Dopamine actually, what it does is it assigns value to things.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:02.480
Now, God put that in us for a very good reason, and and Satan kind of hijacked, biohacked it to use it against us.
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:14.880
So let's say Cavewoman Melissa is walking through the jungle and she's starving, and she finds a bush that has red berries on it, and she eats them and she gets nourished and she doesn't get sick.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.440
Well, her brain releases some dopamine that says, pay attention to that bush.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.559
There is value there, and you remember it.
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:26.320
And then you come back to it again when you're hungry again.
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:42.960
And God put that in us for us to remember that we need to be connected to a community and have tribal approval and to uh to seek sexual connection with a partner so that we can propagate our species and whatnot.
00:35:43.199 --> 00:36:00.000
But things like cocaine or alcohol, it may release so much dopamine, and we assign an inordinate amount of value to something that we begin to think that that cocaine is important to for survival.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:06.320
And we're willing to give up everything else to get to it because we think it's for survival.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:22.559
And our and our brain has been hijacked around that system and and for what God intended for good, Satan is really good at hijacking and and biohacking into and making us continue to idolatrize, idolatise other things.
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:23.119
Yeah.
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.400
No, I love that you bring that up because that's it.
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:28.639
It it just makes it almost like a norm.
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:34.320
Even you mentioned kids in college, you're like, well, everybody else was drinking, you know, it's very cultural.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:47.119
And and I I still don't it's good or bad and whatnot, but it's where you feel where you're using it for maybe to numb pain or use it because you just want that ultimate pleasure.
00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:53.519
We see, you know, we it's in our culture to think that there is a healthy amount of alcohol.
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:54.800
There isn't any.
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.480
And people will go, well, you know, point eight, that's when you say, No, that's where police start yelling at you.
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:12.320
0.7 is not healthy, you know, and and so our lives are designed to not have alcohol in them.
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:19.039
And the truth is, almost 50% of American adults never drink at all.
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:28.320
And we think everybody around us is drinking, but but the way over 40%, almost 50% now uh consume zero alcohol.
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.199
Yeah, I'm actually seeing a tr almost like a trend now.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:34.639
A lot of my friends they've decided to cut it off completely.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:40.320
Yeah, you know, it seems like it's kind of increased since marijuana's legalized, you know.
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.000
And but it's funny because that's it.
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:44.960
Sometimes they're like, oh, I removed this, but open it now.
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.239
I told you, you know, I gotta use something else.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:49.679
And I'm like, well, wait.
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.800
Some of my, you know, favorite people, they'll go, Yeah, I don't drink anymore.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.960
But you know, a couple of gummies after a golf game or something, they'll go, okay.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:00.639
You do you.
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:02.079
Well, that's the thing, right?
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:05.519
You a lot of the times you remove one septum, but they'll find something else.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:09.039
Either they'll start smoking more or more caffeine, or who knows?
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.960
Like I said, this won't go unscratched.
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:25.519
And so for me, uh, prayer and meditation, spending time in the Word, talking to other godly people that are smarter than me, going to maybe to support groups, and then helping and serving other people.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:32.880
Now, there's a toolbox that will not get you in jail and not get you thrown into rehab, and it won't ruin your health.
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:40.000
Or it's what you're doing, because it's what you're designed to do is to seek out other people and to be and not be alone.
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:41.039
And not be alone.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:45.519
And then when you're living in that vitality, then your life, there's so much joy.
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:55.119
There's so much, like for me, when I even in podcasting, for me, I get all energized from it because I feel personally I'm in the university of life.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:05.039
Every story I really plant a seed in me, and I'm like, oh, I could implement this with my family and my kids, and I know the listeners as well.
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:25.519
This could be the message they need to send a friend or for themselves and know that they're truly not alone in this battle and maybe finding another why I need to stop drinking, why I need to, you know, find these resources and go to uh rehab or make different life decisions.
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:33.360
Because I think this is so important to understand that uh our society has made it almost normalized.
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.519
And it's really scary for young kids right now.
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:42.719
If we think, oh, it's okay, I could go for some parties and maybe do a little ecstasy or a little whatever, whatever it is nowadays.
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.119
But nowadays with fentanyl, too.
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.920
I have a dear friend who's lost a son, you know, the fentanyl overdose and how really how dangerous all of that is.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:52.880
All the time.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:54.480
We see it all the time.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.199
You know, it what you're saying.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:01.840
I mean, I can tell that this is a deeply personal issue to you.
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:04.320
And it is to so many people.
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:17.199
And God has changed the way I live my life uh into this thing now where I'm I've taken on this odd thing.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:27.440
I never thought I was going to like be part of a ministry and and running a little nonprofit where I'm like trying to convince churches that they need to be part of the conversation.
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:28.880
Yes, yes, yes.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.440
Please share that because I I remember hearing an interview.
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:35.039
You said you went to your church when you, you know, really needed help.
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:36.079
And what did they say?
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:37.360
You know what?
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.960
They said, you know, what we're doing is we're sending people to AA.
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:45.199
And it was during COVID, and I said, you know, that's not an answer right now.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:50.880
All the meetings have evaporated, and and people can't go to church and they can't go to the gym.
00:40:51.039 --> 00:41:01.039
All their coping mechanisms are taken away right when they're being laid off from work and their kids are having to be homeschooled, and and the circle K is open, and so is the pot dispensary.
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.800
So it was this tsunami of relapse going on.
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:11.519
And and the model we use in medicine is bio, psychosocial, spiritual model for addiction.
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:27.440
And doctors are great at the bio, and counselors are really good at digging through the trauma of our past and figuring out things to help us work through our emotional difficulties, but they don't have the time or the capacity to be a social influence for us.
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:33.039
And churches are perfectly positioned to be the social spiritual part of that thing.
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:38.000
But we just need to all come together and and and quit playing this turf war.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:48.000
I was like, there's still churches out there that say, you know, we want to we we totally deny the the disease concept of this.
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:55.599
It's like, oh we can watch it happening on uh MRIs, you know, it's it does happen.
00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:01.280
But you're right, it does require, you know, use.
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.760
A person has to make moral decisions on whether how they're going to sue themselves.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:10.159
And then we have the scientists going, well, this moral stuff, it's not just bad.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.360
And it's like, no, it's not just bad, but it comes from having a whole bunch of bad decisions.
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:21.840
Take it away from, let's say, the the emotion of, say, drug use.
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.760
Say um a person has emphysema.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.360
Well, we treat them, right?
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:32.639
But their emphysema comes from years and years and years of deciding to smoke cigarettes.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:36.400
But we don't shame them and tell them they have to go to meetings.
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:40.000
We treat them, we fix it, and we try to get them to stop smoking.
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:49.119
Or the same thing with like type 2 diabetes comes usually from years and years of overeating and making bad decisions on their food processes and stuff.
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:51.119
And and but we treat it.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:55.440
And so we need to just quit this shame stuff about addiction.
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:57.440
I get it.
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:02.480
It is truly sometimes us at our very messiest part of our lives, okay?
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:20.559
But if if we can get churches and and counselors and doctors all on the same page and going, hey, we can really get a robust recovery out of these people where they enjoy life and they can move forward and and save their families and save their children's childhood.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:25.840
And you know, it's it just doesn't make any sense to keep playing the turf war over this.
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:28.239
Yes, like more bridging together, right?
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:29.199
Having a bridge.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:29.519
Yeah.
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:31.119
So God picked the right guy.
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:40.960
I'm terrible at taking no for an answer, but I found it fascinating how churches kind of wanna just give me the stiff arm and wanna wanna outsource it.
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:50.800
And I think deep down inside, the answer is that they look at addiction still as those people rather than us with a problem.
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.920
And so once we but it it's it's changing.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:59.519
People are understanding that not every fifth person sitting in your pew has an addiction, you know.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.000
20% of the people walking into your church are suffering from something.
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:10.880
And it could be 20% of the people on your staff, you know, and it might be someone behind your pulpit, you know.
00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:14.639
It's really ugly band-aid to rip off.
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.519
And the wound underneath is just festering.
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:19.360
And but you have to to heal it.
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:20.800
To heal it, yeah.
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:27.119
And to be able to remove the shame because the shame, you know, get so much power over time.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:31.280
Even they've sober now, but they're still, oh, the shame.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:33.519
And that just weighs them down.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:39.119
So I've definitely seen that in so many, and and be able to find hope again.
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:56.480
And for churches, I like the church uh that I go to actually, the pastor is very open to his own personal experience of it with depression and and and just being open to not create shame for people that are dealing with addiction and they're creating these programs.
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:58.079
So I'd love for it to connect you with.
00:44:58.400 --> 00:44:59.039
Well, please do.
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:01.440
Let's let's get him a copy of the dunamis effect.
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:01.840
Yes.
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:17.280
And uh yeah, for anybody of your listeners that's uh that has a a pastor they really love and think that could uh make a difference, um, we have a website, dunamisinitiative.com, D-U-N-A-M-I-S initiative, dunamis initiative.
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:22.559
And um if they hit the contact us button on that, uh it goes to me.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:23.920
I'm a ministry of one.
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:45.360
Okay, so I am more than willing to help and uh to get books in people's hands and try to figure out a way that it's a very, very simple ministry to have because when you outsource it and say, go to AA, what the people hear is Jesus isn't very important for your healing, and neither is your church community.
00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:50.559
And I'm sorry, Pastor, but that's not a very good message for you to be giving people.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.880
You should be saying, What did Jesus do when he went to a new city?
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:56.320
Did he plant a church?
00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:08.800
No, he started healing people, and then communities of faith built around the miracles, and that's what you want to do is to just love people until they can learn to love themselves again.
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:09.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:16.719
Yeah, that is so important to start loving themselves again, all with grace and patience and compassion.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:21.519
And because I do see that's where it's deep rooted is that that self-love.
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:26.639
And they almost looked upon selfish, yeah, right, to think about it this way.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:32.079
But uh, I love what you're doing, and I'll definitely connect you with my church here at uh Mission and Gilbert.
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:32.880
Yeah, thank you.
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:41.039
And uh, because I do feel if they keep it in-house, that's where they they have community and this, but also they need the tools, right?
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:46.960
They need the tools from blending science and um just your experience.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:56.880
You know, it's interesting because we use the word recovery, but I I really hate that word because recovery sounds like when you recover your data on a computer, you get it back to where it was.
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:03.760
But when we heal people from addiction, they are like so much better than they've ever been in the past, you know?
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.159
They are like on fire for Jesus.
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:07.360
It's amazing.
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:12.400
So, so it's not recovery, it's like transformed or some other word, you know.
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:14.079
Almost a new identity, right?
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:18.800
And they have to almost be comfortable with that new identity as they grow into it.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:19.199
Right.
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:25.599
Well, Paul says to uh to don't conform to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:38.159
And through the meditation and nutrition and exercise and and prayer, uh our minds can be renewed and transformed into one that serves us better and serves God in the way we're designed.
00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:38.960
Love that.
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:40.000
Well, that's beautiful.
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:56.559
That definitely uh speaks to me as what my hope is to bring people closer to God and not make it a barrier for them, you know, if they've moved away from church or groups and finding their own community, uh, whatever that is.
00:47:56.719 --> 00:48:07.360
I always tell people, yeah, you're not meant to do life alone as much as I was a hyper, had become so hyper-independent and never wanted to accept help, you know, did everything myself.
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:12.719
But when everything happened, I had to kind of surrender and let go and be open to it.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:18.159
And I found a wonderful community to, you know, of people now that are a believer.
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:32.559
I I even told you today that every business venture that I'll have with someone, we've got to align, you know, with higher power, with Jesus, with God, because they know what I'm trying to do.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.960
It's bring light, be of service.
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.719
And that is what's so fulfilling that God put me on my heart.
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:42.639
Start a podcast, share people's stories, share yours, and write these books.
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.519
I'm like, okay, I keep obeying, you know.
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:48.159
Sometimes like me, okay, sure.
00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:52.000
You know, you gotta be careful when you ask for God's will in your life, okay?
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.280
Because sometimes you're not expecting the answers.
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:57.360
Like, I want you to write a book, Don.
00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:01.360
And I'm like, no, I thought maybe I'd be an usher on Sundays.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:02.400
I feel like going to church.
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:03.760
And he's like, oh, okay.
00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:05.039
I figured put it that way.
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:08.559
I want you to write four books and start a ministry.
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:09.440
And I'm like, no.
00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:12.159
I know he likes to push you out of your comfort zone.
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:12.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:19.039
I'm definitely learning to live outside my comfort zone with social media and you know, oh yeah, me too.
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:22.079
When I moved here, I wanted to be completely out of social media and look at me now.
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:33.440
Now that's but I instead of hating social media, I said, what if we our content now we put there's so much bad and dark stuff on so on social media?
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:35.760
What if we're the ones that someone strolls on?
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:37.039
It's something positive.
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:56.079
You know, my prayer this morning when I was uh at sunrise was that I hope that one person can be saved today, you know, and that their lives can be transformed and their families not crash and burn and their lives not be destroyed, and their children, you know, live a healthy, happy life seeking Christ.
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:59.440
So if that can happen, it will be.
00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:01.760
Yeah, I believe it.
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:02.559
I believe it.
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:07.360
And not just one, but many because this episode will be here forever.
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:07.760
Oh, yeah.
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:08.239
Forever.
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:10.719
So you touch many, many lives.00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:13.039
And so I'm greatly honored.00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:23.599
And if this episode truly spoke to you, resonated, or you thought of a family member that you can send it to, please share it.00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:30.559
You never know if it's gonna inspire them to seek help, to surrender, or to reach out to Dr.00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:30.960
Don.00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.599
He says he's he's a one man show.00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:35.039
You can reach out to him.00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:37.840
We'll have his information down in the show notes.00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:50.239
And please like and subscribe because the more viewers, the more that you share, the more we can spread God's light, inspire hope, and that you are truly never alone.00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:51.920
So thank you for listening today.
